Should we also do a comparison of "Knowledge companies" using Lotus Notes vs. those not using Lotus Notes?

Looking through the "Biggest by revenue" list, I see big big industrial companies, but what about the nimble, the light and the agile?

Can we have the UK FTSE 100 too?

Yes, we can. Somebody will have to put in a page and maintain it.

It would also be interesting to see an industry and/or geographic region breakdown of Notes vs. Exchange companies.

I think we are getting closer to some database requirements. :-)

Yeah, make sure the database requires unique keys, there are companies listed twice. There are also people writing what (little) they know about the subsidiaries they work for which have nothing to do with the rest of their groups. There are links to case studies that cover 1500 users in corporations with over 100,000 people. This lost any credibility.

Vitor, most of the assertions have no references at all. How could they be any more credible?

Credibility is only being achieved my more people correcting mistakes.

Vitor, if you see companies listed twice, identify them. Add a note in the comments indicating why they should not be counted, and remove the "E" or "N" from the first column. This is a wiki. You have the power to improve the data.

Vitor
"There are links to case studies that cover 1500 users in corporations with over 100,000 people"
If there's better evidence available please add it. My approach is that some evidence is better than none ...

I updated the listing for Time Warner since I know that everything acquired with Turner uses Exchange. This includes CNN, Cartoon Network, TBS, TNT, and College Sports South.

This data is getting more and more valuable - Volker I reckon you could get a sponsor now - Google?

I've done an intermediate checkup (http://www.peterdehaas.net/2008/06/domino-or-excha.html) and think we need to figure out how to fix some of the open items in the fortune 175 list :

N? or E ?
Its one or the other.

M (=MIX)
This is an organisation that uses both platforms for email. I would argue that not both platforms are equal in size and that the 80/20 rule applies.
Maybe a good suggestion is to find out what the corporate standard is as defined by the CIO office / corporate IT department.

Second criteria/interpretation maybe Domino applications used. If this is an overview related to email the Domino apps and the related usage of Notes/Domino is not relevant. Or add an additional column that indicates Domino Apps.

Obviously this is open for discussion ;-)

National Iranian Oil Company is twice in the list (55 and 151). I hope they use Exchange :-D

Re: Iranian National Oil Company. Looks like there is something wrong in the source list. I'm just going to drop the second reference.

@Peter, Since the root of list being here was to question the veracity of some numbers that specifically said "That's not folks thinking about it, and that's not mixed shops. That's companies using Exchange for all of their employees who have email." I think we need to keep the mix flag (M) for *any* significant usage.

The primary platform column is there to show what the company standard is.

Any use of apps should not affect either the primary mail platform column or the mail use flag.

@ Kerr
I agree but let's be clear on "significant usage" then.
Example : ING(9): corp standard ois Exchange. A minority I believe uses Notes in the US / Canada.Fortis(24+ RBS(32)+ Grupo Santander(88) all Mix because of ABN Amro merger ? To my knowledge each of these companies are on Exchange ...

@Peter, Yes, Having large significant departments on Domino is mixed, even if it is a minority for the company as a whole. At least for the purpose of identifying "companies using Exchange for all of their employees who have email." We're not talking a couple of hundred seats here. Anyway, it's been 6 months since the acquisition, maybe they've migrated everyone.

@Peter cont. And if we have knowledge on what Fortis and Santander are running as their primary mail platform then that should be marked as such in that column as such. The M flag is there *specifically* to identify Shops that have non-trivial use of another platform.

Peter, I agree with Kerr. Mr. Bernardo set the rules here, and then (on my blog) quickly tried to backpedal.

"even though I said I didn't count people who were migrating or just thinking about it, there are several companies on Volker's list that are listed as migrating, but counted as Notes shops...let's either count them or not, but if they're migrating...well..."

I think part of the challenge in this exercise is that Microsoft appears to be counting customers who say they have started migration as having been fully migrated, and in some cases, I am 100% sure that the migrations have stopped, stalled, or strategy has changed.

Ed I understand the rules and the fact that one of the objectives is to get the actual figure out. I also look beyond this little dispute and think this is a good opprtunity to get some insight into the actual situation. That does include organisations migrating and there is a certain trend there. All input that I have provided includes verifyable data such as press announcements or casestudies. ALmost none of the Notes claims do.
Your 100% belief of migrations stalled or otherwise changed is hard verify.
I see 1 trend NOtes --> Microsoft where it concerns migrations ;-)

hank you everyone for handling this in a very professional manner. Peter, this is not the place to discuss those trends. Let the facts speak for themselves. I invite you to start a Migrations page, where each of those large scale migrations can be discussed. We could use some insight in this area. It is of utmost importance to give all players a a voice. Wikipedia handles this in a nice way. They will slways state dissent where apropriate. Ed, I suggest that we keep migrating shops on their original system, until half of the user population has migrated. I am not sure whether we should count organizations in transition as "mixed". I am very open minded here.

Removed the reference to Jim from the first paragraph. This wiki has gone way beyond the original mission.

Volker, fair point. I got carried away, I have no intention to frustrate the process. I think it will be very hard however to really have good insight into migrations, simply because this is almost all cases not public information. So objectively / verifyably listing organisations in a migration scenario is a stretch I would say

@Ed, to be clear, I never backpedaled... in fact, I commented in your blog that we stand by our numbers. I've seen little here to "shake my faith"...

Updated some confusing/misleading parts. #56 was listed as a Notes shop but the comments indicate the company migrated to Exchange.

What is becoming clear is that the change in technology usage has never been clearly represented regardless of vendor, whether it be deliberate or an over-sight. When the method of counting favours one vendor over another, the opposing vendor usually finds evidence to diminish the other's claim, legitimately or not. It's a competition so this is no surprise and customer perceptions are at stake.

But no one seems to be able to define or at least obtain universal agreement of the conditions for the level playing field customers would like to see, and eliminate the spin.

So my penny's worth is this, if this "chest-beating" business about "Im bigger than you" is so important, then no single factoid will present a clear picture. So why not design a community dashboard that takes into account a number of factors that includes growth, seats, servers, %age of budget, or what ever factors you deem relevant, and have a truly independent facilitator collate and (if possible) validate the data.... over to you Volker....

Sure. Go ahead and build it. Then ask people to use it.

Should you maybe add another column, one column for email and a second for "uses LN apps",

Another for "uses MS apps" would be a bit misleading... since MS is an OS, even LN is an MS app. So it would need to be uses .NET apps or something like that.

What I'd really be interested in is even if a company uses Exchange, I'd like to know if they have a LN application infrastructure or not.

The whole "uses LN apps" is defensive enough as it is. It's in the eye of the beholder. To some it says "hey they are using Notes", to others it says "migrated from Notes to Exchange".

I can not find any references thourgh Google that ExxonMobil is migrating to Exchange. Could whoever put that comment there add a reference?

Sorry to be such a late-comer in this discussion.
Someone is missing a major factor here.
The comparison of Notes/Domino with Exchange is like the comparison of apples and oranges. There is none!

Messaging is only one of the components of a Domino environment. Add up all the Microsoft components that you would need to get all the services that a Domino server offers. You would spend much more money and need 3 to 4 times more personnel to administer and develop applications in a Microsoft environment.

Domino can do it all on one box, messaging, group calendar and scheduling, hosting applications, web server, directory server, unrivaled security and replication (the real thing, not the pseudo-replication some offer).

There are only 2 reasons companies migrate from Notes to Exchange: ignorance of the features of Domino and financial offers from Microsoft that end up being a bigger cost when all things are added up.

imho Notes apps are not beatable today. not with Oracle's Java, not with .NET.

Unfortunately your opinion seems so loose ground but this list is a good prove that IBM does not only care about big Fortune companies.What a pity.

At what point should DominoorExchange count a migration as having occurred? I ask because Peter de Haas recently flipped GlaxoSmithKline from Notes to Exchange on the basis of a February 2009 blog posting that GSK will be moving to Exchange Online. The blog posting does not claim that any portion of this change has yet happened. A telling phrase is "Now, the hard work begins."

So, should GSK already be marked "E"? Do we wait until >50% of users are moved? Do we require the full migration to be complete? Another case in point for this might be Phillips, where the move to a hosted Exchange platform is definitely far advanced, but it could hardly be described as succesful.

Rupert,
I did ask mysef this question before I made the change. The guidelines are not very clear. What I personally do think that counts is the fact that customers like GSK are openly and formally ' on record' for their choice of Microsoft over Lotus. The project has started and, without inside knowledge / info it will be hard to determine when a certain mailestone is reached. So the option is to either wait for info tp become public or alternatively 'flip' IBM clients that do similar announcements also in early stage ..

As for Philips, I have seen no publications by Philips that their migration is not successful. I have seen Philips' representatives speak at several events in the last 2 months on the progress of their current projects / migrations. So how do you define 'success' ?

Again I have no intention to 'trick the books' here, the intention of this initiative is a transparent process and I am comfortable with any guidelines we agree upon.

Well the reality is Domino/Notes is losing allot of ground and IBM doesn't seem interested in keeping the product alive and health. Let's be real how many people can say they do a search and actively find Domino Admin/DEV positions?

Manuel,

I won't argue it's lost ground over the years but there have been competitive gains in the last couple of years as well. The healthy & alive comment is completely off base given the published and followed development schedule of the product. Heck, IBM updates & releases new features on a more regular basis than Microsoft does with Exchange, and the upgrades are much less disruptive.

If you're talking about market health, that's another issue altogether and yes we've all discussed "Lotus marketing" (or as I'd call it, more of an IBM issue than a Lotus issue) many times. As to finding dev & admin positions, they are indeed out there.

Kemort, Yes while IBM does release updates with some added features, they are considered to be years behind (MS) and are late to bring new technologies (speed to market is very important). Let's look at the iPhone for example, IBM should have paired with Apple to deliver an integrated solution for Lotus Products, but instead they wanted you to visit a web page. MS took advantage of IBM dropping their pants, got in an delivered an integrated solution for the iPhone, 2 years later here comes IBM late to the park. As for the carer path being healthy, have you looked out in the market? Less and less companies are looking for anything related to Domino, Notes now means "You are able to take quick Notes"

And yes I have to agree with you all this stems from IBM not knowing how to properly market the product or understanding speed to market. IBM is so focused on xml, java, etc that they are letting the product die, no matter how superior the product is to Exchange.

A good way to see who's using Domino for applications (at least on the public internet) is to do a google search on filetype:nsf

Domino applications are .nsf files and this will pull up links to Domino applications on the internet. Add a company name like GE and you get hits like this one https://www1.gelifesciences.com/aptrix/upp00971.nsf

It would be interesting to see if any of these companies are using the GAPE stack or Gmail as well. I'd still like to see a 'LN applications' column and now a 'GAPE' column added.